Automatic faster than the manual??? - Page 18 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

boxmonkeyracing · 08-12-2008, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Can someone explain how the assymetric half shafts do their magic against wheel hop?

it's PFM? same thing that makes computers talk to each other, put man on the moon, and allows me to play realistic games on my ps3. . .lol.

JEFF2010SSMANUAL · 08-12-2008, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Can someone explain how the assymetric half shafts do their magic against wheel hop?

That would be nice to get a real answer.

Wm Holden · 08-12-2008, 01:06 PM

I think it means two different sizes so they don't set up a resonance or tone.

*GTAHVIT* · 08-12-2008, 01:22 PM

I'll do some searching to validate my thoughts. but here goes

I think since one shaft is shorter it weighs less. So when you are spinning the tires, it's like spinning a shaft that is heavier at one end which makes it wobble, thus the wheel hop.

If I'm not mistaken the bigger diameter shaft is the shorter one to counterbalance the entire rear end to prevent the one sided wheel hop.

I'll do some digging on the CTSV site and see if I recall it correctly.

Stand by....

Edit: All I can find are articles that say, "They've corrected the wheel hop by adding asymmetrical half shaft...." etc.

Captain Awesome · 08-12-2008, 03:18 PM

Thanks for trying guys!

*CamaroSpike23* · 08-14-2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Can someone explain how the assymetric half shafts do their magic against wheel hop?

sure...read on....

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

it's PFM? same thing that makes computers talk to each other, put man on the moon, and allows me to play realistic games on my ps3. . .lol.

sorry, no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wm Holden

I think it means two different sizes so they don't set up a resonance or tone.

resonance...yes, tone....no. its a different type of resonance, think of a pendulum swinging back and forth, thats the kind of resonance...back and forth.
the shafts are of different diameter (33mm left /40mm right)... what this does is prevent wheel hop. when you stomp on the gas, the axle twists, not much, but it does, if it didnt, it would snap in a heartbeat and you'd be replacing them all the time. we'll come back to this in a moment.

now imagine an older axle without limited slip. punch the gas and which tire spins? the right rear correct? this is because of the way the axle gets its power from the driveshaft. the rotational torque from the driveshaft effectively puts all the power to the right axle, then thru spider gears, some of that power gets transferred to the left side.
basically: driveshaft->rear gears-> right axle-> left axle

now with the advent of limited slip rear ends, you are able to transfer more power to the left to equalize the load. but it is still sending the power to the right first. if you ever watch drag cars from the rear, you'll see the importance of preloading the suspension to counter the torque-load that is applied to the right rear of the car in order to minimize wheel hop. what does this have to do with asymetrical axle shafts? everything. its all about the wheel hop, and i like to give you all some background information on why things are the way they are.

now back to the shafts, with the larger half shaft on the right, it makes it harder (so to speak) for the right side to flex as much allowing you to keep more power to the ground. mixing this info all together, imagine the right side gets a 60% of the power and 40% of the power goes to the left side. if the shafts are of equal size, then the right side will be overpowered and want to flex and resonate (flex back and forth while rotating) aka wheel hopping while the left is staying planted. now if you enlarge the shaft on the right side, it creates a larger force to have to move, allowing the 40% that is going to the left side (smaller axle) to equal the 60% that is going to the right.

*disclaimer, the axles dont get a 40/60 split, i am just using that as an example*

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtahvit

I'll do some searching to validate my thoughts. but here goes

I think since one shaft is shorter it weighs less. So when you are spinning the tires, it's like spinning a shaft that is heavier at one end which makes it wobble, thus the wheel hop.

If I'm not mistaken the bigger diameter shaft is the shorter one to counterbalance the entire rear end to prevent the one sided wheel hop.

I'll do some digging on the CTSV site and see if I recall it correctly.

Stand by....

Edit: All I can find are articles that say, "They've corrected the wheel hop by adding asymmetrical half shaft...." etc.

the shaft isnt shorter in the sense that you are thinking, they are roughly the same length only different diameters and obviously, different weights

boxmonkeyracing · 08-14-2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

sorry, no.

that was a joke. . .

*CamaroSpike23* · 08-14-2008, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

that was a joke. . .

i know... thats why i said sorry...

boxmonkeyracing · 08-14-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

i know... thats why i said sorry...

lol just making sure. but that's what I tell my airmen when I don't know. it's PFM. . .

Captain Awesome · 08-14-2008, 06:58 PM

Holy cow! Spike is the smartest guy on the internet. Thanks!

*CamaroSpike23* · 08-14-2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

lol just making sure. but that's what I tell my airmen when I don't know. it's PFM. . .

everything is snafu on my side

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Holy cow! Spike is the smartest guy on the internet. Thanks!

no, im not...well, i might be depending on the subject. im not an expert on anything, well, a few things here and there, but im more of a "better-than-jack of all trades"

and i like to provide information for anyone i can about...well, anything.

*GTAHVIT* · 08-14-2008, 08:01 PM

FUBAR is one of my favorites.

And thanks for the cleanup above.

*CamaroSpike23* · 08-14-2008, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtahvit

FUBAR is one of my favorites.

And thanks for the cleanup above.

how bout BOHICA?

and no prob. its what i do.

rayhawk · 08-31-2008, 11:16 AM

Ok, I think I have some idea what might be going on here (aside from the obvious unknowns mentioned so far). I looked at the gearing between the auto and manual and this is what I came up with. The manual has to shift out of first at about 55mph, and then start at the bottom (not really-4500 rpm) of second to make the 0-60 run. The auto shifts to second at only 38 mph, and pulls hard thru second and will actually shift to third at about 66mph. This effectively gives it two full gears just to get to 60, whereas the manual will pull to 79 mph in second gear. I also used the given redlines of 6600 for the manual and 6000 for the auto as shift points. As for the 1/4, the manual again will pull to 114mph in third, and the auto only makes it to 102 in third, and must shift to 4th to finish the 1/4 mile. I have a spreadsheet for anyone that would like to play around with the numbers.

This tells you that the auto effectively has a shorter rear end ratio due to the trans gearing (acts like a ~3.73) than the manual with the 3.45. This also means a rear end ratio change on the auto might not help as much as it would on the manual, since you are already using 4 gears for the 1/4 instead of three.

As a final note, remember that time to speed does not always determine who is in the front at a given distance. It is possible to win a race but not accelerate to a given speed as fast as the car you beat due to launch times. This is why 0-60 time does not tell you everything.

08-12-2008, 01:06 PM	#241
Wm Holden Yes, that's my real name. Drives: 2005 LS2 600hp GTO Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Ventura, ca. Posts: 770	I think it means two different sizes so they don't set up a resonance or tone. __________________ Magnuson 112HH supercharger at 7.5 psi (Virtual 9.0 liter) 600hp 1 of 2 torrid/red int /A4/05 555r 275/40/R17's Nitto Extreme Drags 1.7 60 ft Car runs high 11's No other mods. I got the first 112HH Magnuson blower ported for a GTO. Now it appears it was also one of the last.... http://www.ribbonprinting.com http://www.personalizedawarenessribbons.com

08-12-2008, 01:22 PM	#242
GTAHVIT Blessed Drives: 2013 Sonic RS MT Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Saint Augustine FL Posts: 28,444 View My Garage	I'll do some searching to validate my thoughts. but here goes I think since one shaft is shorter it weighs less. So when you are spinning the tires, it's like spinning a shaft that is heavier at one end which makes it wobble, thus the wheel hop. If I'm not mistaken the bigger diameter shaft is the shorter one to counterbalance the entire rear end to prevent the one sided wheel hop. I'll do some digging on the CTSV site and see if I recall it correctly. Stand by.... Edit: All I can find are articles that say, "They've corrected the wheel hop by adding asymmetrical half shaft...." etc. __________________ Click image to see build thread. PQ - "the love of cars. It's a boys first step toward manhood and a mans last hold on boyhood." Fbodfather - "We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name." The_Blur - "Let's not confuse competitors with equals." Last edited by GTAHVIT; 08-12-2008 at 01:43 PM.

08-14-2008, 08:01 PM	#250
GTAHVIT Blessed Drives: 2013 Sonic RS MT Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Saint Augustine FL Posts: 28,444 View My Garage	FUBAR is one of my favorites. And thanks for the cleanup above. __________________ Click image to see build thread. PQ - "the love of cars. It's a boys first step toward manhood and a mans last hold on boyhood." Fbodfather - "We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name." The_Blur - "Let's not confuse competitors with equals."

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08-12-2008, 03:18 PM	#243
Captain Awesome Account Suspended Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: New York Posts: 3,746	Thanks for trying guys!

08-14-2008, 06:58 PM	#248
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08-31-2008, 11:16 AM	#252
rayhawk Drives: Camaro SS Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 1,060 View My Garage	Ok, I think I have some idea what might be going on here (aside from the obvious unknowns mentioned so far). I looked at the gearing between the auto and manual and this is what I came up with. The manual has to shift out of first at about 55mph, and then start at the bottom (not really-4500 rpm) of second to make the 0-60 run. The auto shifts to second at only 38 mph, and pulls hard thru second and will actually shift to third at about 66mph. This effectively gives it two full gears just to get to 60, whereas the manual will pull to 79 mph in second gear. I also used the given redlines of 6600 for the manual and 6000 for the auto as shift points. As for the 1/4, the manual again will pull to 114mph in third, and the auto only makes it to 102 in third, and must shift to 4th to finish the 1/4 mile. I have a spreadsheet for anyone that would like to play around with the numbers. This tells you that the auto effectively has a shorter rear end ratio due to the trans gearing (acts like a ~3.73) than the manual with the 3.45. This also means a rear end ratio change on the auto might not help as much as it would on the manual, since you are already using 4 gears for the 1/4 instead of three. As a final note, remember that time to speed does not always determine who is in the front at a given distance. It is possible to win a race but not accelerate to a given speed as fast as the car you beat due to launch times. This is why 0-60 time does not tell you everything.