New Toyota TV Ad says there Cars are American

[papawattz]

Originally Posted by 2SSRSinBama

Oddly enough, most of the non-union automotive plants here....hire Union contractors to build their plants and to do additions in them


i've worked over a year at the V8 plant in Huntsville for Toyota and know several guys still working at Navistar in Huntsville out of our local... Navistar is about to take over the former rail car plant here in Barton and we are expecting to get the renovation that goes along with that move

its kind of funny how they are "anti-union" but when they want s*** done right, go out and hire Union contractors

Amen brother

[papawattz]

Originally Posted by 2SSRSinBama

no one is forced to join a damn Union... and you think someone can't be terminated on the job for drinking if they are Union

you watch Fox News a lot...........don't you, lol

I see people get fired everyday for popping out on drug tests, just like a non-union job

and no, they don't have any protection, I worked in a non-union Automotive plant for 2 years before deciding to join the Apprenticeship and becoming an electrician... I know what its like to have your insurance cut in half and your premiums doubled from December 31s to January 1st(overnight)... I know what its like to see someone work 64 days in a row(7 days a week, I did it) with no credit... but then decide to miss and have to abide by a "points system"... which is what kills me about the point system, when you work 60+ days in a row, you gain nothing... but when you miss a day, its the same punishment... there is no reward for them making you be there all the time(i'm talking 7 days a week) but if something comes up for you, even if its on a Sunday which technically isn't even your "scheduled" working day, its the same punishment for not showing up, whether its a Sunday or a Wednesday... once again, been there done that... and guess what, the Japanese all run their plants eerily the same... In Japan, they are used to a 60+ hour a week work schedule, working is their life over there.... here in America, we like to base our lives and time with family on 40... they don't understand that... rather than hire 2 people to do a job, they'd rather hire 1 and work him 7 days a week, 12 hours a day... hey, they are paying ONE benefit package...

go work in a right to work state at one of these plants, do it for 2 years, don't listen to Fox News, go do it yourself... and then get back to me... because i've lived the life 1st hand, not what Bill O'Reily told me


maybe they hire Union Contractors because for example when you hire a Union Electrical Contractor and you get 5 electricians on the job, you get 5 electricians who went through a 4 year(well, we do a 5 year here but we're ahead of the curve with a lot of PLC and Instrumentation courses) Apprenticeship, so you have 5 licensed electricians... when you hire a Rat, you may get 5 workers......but its probably going to be 1 licensed electrician and 4 "helpers"... aka, 4 Mexicans

the Immigration law passed here in Bama and they say construction is "taking a hit"... we aren't taking a hit, the Mexicans are leaving... damn, I hate that they are going to have to hire legal citizens now...........oh wait, that's a good thing

Once again, Amen brother, couldn't have said it better myself. After reading this post I was like" holy sh#t were we seperated at birth? My work history is pretty similar! I too went through a 5 year apprenticeship (electrical)and now I hold a card in Michigan and Indiana.IBEW Local 153 baby! Nice to see a fellow Camaro owner/union Electrician here

[papawattz]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

The workers have no rights? Yeah that's a good one. They have the same rights as everyone else, working or not.

I prefer what you described to the alternative which is to hire kids straight out of high school for $75 dollars an hour and if they don't do the job right or they go smoke pot or get drunk on lunch break or they molest coworkers or children on the job you can't get rid of them. The unions protect them using money they STEAL from people who would rather NOT belong to the union either by FORCING them to pay dues regardless or through political payback from corrupt politicians.

Right to work is the right answer.

P.S. Not ALL unions are bad. Just a LOT of them are.

Try one,UAW, and they are not as bad as they use to be, they are improving big time. You obviously never worked for, or around a union, so you have no clueYou more than likely sit in front of your boob tube watching the media gush there lies about unions or get your info from reading the NewYorker or some other biased paper/magazine

[2SSRSinBama]

Originally Posted by papawattz

Once again, Amen brother, couldn't have said it better myself. After reading this post I was like" holy sh#t were we seperated at birth? My work history is pretty similar! I too went through a 5 year apprenticeship (electrical)and now I hold a card in Michigan and Indiana.IBEW Local 153 baby! Nice to see a fellow Camaro owner/union Electrician here

IBEW Local 558 here... still a 3rd year though

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by 2SSRSinBama

they are glad to come to parts of the country where the cost of living is low, hire kids straight out of high school for $12/hr to build their cars... and if they are terrible at it, lay them off and get another one...

Well, lets think about that. I'd say $12/hr is a pretty good starting wage for an 18 year old just out of high school with absolutely no skills or experience whatsoever. And if the employee is terrible at their job, why shouldn't that employee be fired and replaced by someone who can do the job properly? Someone doesn't have the right to a guarenteed job with a six figure salary and full pension and retirement at 55 just for showing up at the front door 80% of the time. That has to be earned by providing labor of a skill and quality that is of that value to the employer.

This is why GM and Chrysler went bankrupt under the weight of the UAW. They were paying workers substantially more than the value of their labor, and they were unable to fire those who were terrible employees who came in hungover half the time (hence, the infamous "Monday morning vehicles.")

Originally Posted by 2SSRSinBama

and no, they don't have any protection, I worked in a non-union Automotive plant for 2 years before deciding to join the Apprenticeship and becoming an electrician... I know what its like to have your insurance cut in half and your premiums doubled from December 31s to January 1st(overnight)... I know what its like to see someone work 64 days in a row(7 days a week, I did it) with no credit... but then decide to miss and have to abide by a "points system"... which is what kills me about the point system, when you work 60+ days in a row, you gain nothing... but when you miss a day, its the same punishment... there is no reward for them making you be there all the time(i'm talking 7 days a week) but if something comes up for you, even if its on a Sunday which technically isn't even your "scheduled" working day, its the same punishment for not showing up, whether its a Sunday or a Wednesday... once again, been there done that... and guess what, the Japanese all run their plants eerily the same... In Japan, they are used to a 60+ hour a week work schedule, working is their life over there.... here in America, we like to base our lives and time with family on 40... they don't understand that... rather than hire 2 people to do a job, they'd rather hire 1 and work him 7 days a week, 12 hours a day... hey, they are paying ONE benefit package...

Do you really expect any of us to believe that the Toyota employees in Kentucky are working 84-hour weeks, and 365 days a year? If you are going to make something up, at least come up with a lie that is even a little plausible.

Let me share an actual true story of worker hardship and the union mentality. About a year or two ago, there was an HBO documentary that followed around several (UAW) employees during the last several weeks before the Trailblazer final assembly line was shut down. (And I did notice some of them drinking in the car on the way to work in the morning, by the way). It was quite sad to see how devastating an effect it had on their individual lives, and on their town in general, that they were all losing their jobs, and were being left with no future prospects all because their union priced them right out of their jobs entirely, and pushed their employer into bankruptcy.

However, most of the people interviewed (in their cars at the gate of the plant) seemed to have the same ironic conundrum. Most of them, while sitting in $40K+, fully optioned Suburbans and Silverados, were asking what they were going to do in the future, since they had no skills, and were not qualified to do any available job outside the assembly line work. None of them seemed to grasp the idea that maybe the union system of six figure pay with all the benefits for low skill labor was a contributing factor in why the plant had to be shuttered.

Most of them had nothing good to say about GM, their employer who until then had provided them with the means to drive those $40K cars despite having limited marketable skills of value to offer back. They sat in those brand new trucks bashing the source of their livelihood as an evil entity, without even for a second having the thought that maybe, it was not GM's fault, but their own that they had no qualifications with which to find any other kind of work.

Originally Posted by 2SSRSinBama

go work in a right to work state at one of these plants, do it for 2 years, don't listen to Fox News, go do it yourself... and then get back to me...

I am not a member of a union, and I never will be, so, admittedly, I have little direct experience with unions. The image I do have came last winter when union protesters went to the capital building (where members of my family work), completely trashed the grounds, disrupted the elected legislature, and have been harassing the governor's family and children, and any business that support him ever since. I won't compare it to the mob, because mob hit men are much more peaceful and subtle than that.

[rickerda]

Originally Posted by 2010SS2SS

May not be V8 but never heard of a twin turbo supra or the new Lexus LFA?

From SEMA last year:

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...680-hp-v8.html

As for the state of the american auto industry, it started post WWII and there have been many wrong turns since.

[2010SS2SS]

The Unions have basically priced their membership out of the labor market to the point that the union, ironically, is the workers worst enemy right now. The cold, hard fact is that assembly line work is low to medium skill labor. Toyota, fittingly, pays low to medium wages. As long as the UAW demands medium to high wages for low to medium skill work, a fully American workforce will not be economically possible for those companies. A company cannot pay people more than their skills set is worth and hope to remain competitive.

In a November 23, 2008, New York Times editorial, Andrew Ross Sorkin stated that the average UAW worker was paid $70 per hour, including health and pension costs, while Toyota workers in the US receive $10 to $20 less.[18] The UAW asserts that most of this labor cost disparity comes from legacy pension and healthcare benefits to retired members, of which the Japanese automakers have none

Toyota workers average approx. average of $10 to $20 less than their UAW counterparts based on some reivews. Where the UAW gets hit is on the pensions received by former workers.

[2SSRSinBama]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

Well, lets think about that. I'd say $12/hr is a pretty good starting wage for an 18 year old just out of high school with absolutely no skills or experience whatsoever. And if the employee is terrible at their job, why shouldn't that employee be fired and replaced by someone who can do the job properly? Someone doesn't have the right to a guarenteed job with a six figure salary and full pension and retirement at 55 just for showing up at the front door 80% of the time. That has to be earned by providing labor of a skill and quality that is of that value to the employer.

This is why GM and Chrysler went bankrupt under the weight of the UAW. They were paying workers substantially more than the value of their labor, and they were unable to fire those who were terrible employees who came in hungover half the time (hence, the infamous "Monday morning vehicles.")



Do you really expect any of us to believe that the Toyota employees in Kentucky are working 84-hour weeks, and 365 days a year? If you are going to make something up, at least come up with a lie that is even a little plausible.

Let me share an actual true story of worker hardship and the union mentality. About a year or two ago, there was an HBO documentary that followed around several (UAW) employees during the last several weeks before the Trailblazer final assembly line was shut down. (And I did notice some of them drinking in the car on the way to work in the morning, by the way). It was quite sad to see how devastating an effect it had on their individual lives, and on their town in general, that they were all losing their jobs, and were being left with no future prospects all because their union priced them right out of their jobs entirely, and pushed their employer into bankruptcy.

However, most of the people interviewed (in their cars at the gate of the plant) seemed to have the same ironic conundrum. Most of them, while sitting in $40K+, fully optioned Suburbans and Silverados, were asking what they were going to do in the future, since they had no skills, and were not qualified to do any available job outside the assembly line work. None of them seemed to grasp the idea that maybe the union system of six figure pay with all the benefits for low skill labor was a contributing factor in why the plant had to be shuttered.

Most of them had nothing good to say about GM, their employer who until then had provided them with the means to drive those $40K cars despite having limited marketable skills of value to offer back. They sat in those brand new trucks bashing the source of their livelihood as an evil entity, without even for a second having the thought that maybe, it was not GM's fault, but their own that they had no qualifications with which to find any other kind of work.



I am not a member of a union, and I never will be, so, admittedly, I have little direct experience with unions. The image I do have came last winter when union protesters went to the capital building (where members of my family work), completely trashed the grounds, disrupted the elected legislature, and have been harassing the governor's family and children, and any business that support him ever since. I won't compare it to the mob, because mob hit men are much more peaceful and subtle than that.

the problem with the shabby pay these companies provide is, a high turnover rate... $12/hr isn't bad for a 18 year old out of high school... now try to raise a family on it... no one can do that, therefore, no one is going to STAY there long... and with that being said, they'll never have a "skilled" worker, which you like to mention... because anyone with a "skill" isn't going to work for $12/hr, they're going to leave that job very quickly, and that is why the turnover rate is so high at those plants... its also why they get engineers usually straight out of college in their early 20s, inexperienced Engineers.... anyone with experience, isn't going to be an engineer for $50,000 a year... so therefore, they aren't going to have engineers with experience either... rather than give the proper training and pay a decent wage, they'd rather have a high turnover rate and just continue to get inexperienced people... it may seem "cheaper" but in reality, its not...

you are quick to blame the UAW for the automotive crisis, need I remind you that Honda, Toyota, and Nissan were all UAW-free, yet all three took bailouts from the Japanese government... how about that Nissan, who is as anti-union as they come, lost 44% of their market share and saw the largest decline in sales... going to blame the UAW and its "costs" for their woes as well? the automotive crisis was not the UAWs fault, the automotive crisis was the blame of financial institutions, lending money to people who were trying to live outside of their means... they also created the housing crisis... people want to talk about the money we are losing on the automotive bailout, well, what about Bush's bailouts of the banks? most of the automakers are making their payments on schedule.... we've yet to receive any money from Fannie Mae, etc...

it was popular for Fox News to blame the UAW but in reality, GM's problems were caused by terrible management, lack of quality(from the engineering standpoint NOT the production), too many models competing within the brand, etc... NOT the UAW, even if GM had of been non-union, they would of had to restructure or would have went under... and its why the Japanese automakers even without the Union were not exempt from the automotive crisis, in fact, Toyota and Nissan came out from it WORSE off


I know Fox News never mentioned the fact that Nissan almost went under in the crisis, etc.... they were too busy following around Union workers knowing damn well if you go to ANY plant, you will probably find someone drinking in the parking lot, we had people get fired doing that EXACT THING when I was working in the non-union automotive industry... in fact, I wish I had a dollar for everyone who took one too many pill and almost passed out on the assembly line

[Rock36]

Forgive me if this was covered before, and I just missed it, but I would like to add a couple things to where the money ends up for Japanese companies like Toyota.

1) Regardless of the wages and benefits, all of the American employees that are paid in the US by Toyota (in US Dollars) spend most of their money in the US. Sales taxes, payroll taxes, income taxes all go into US State/Federal government pockets as well.

2) If you want a share of Toyota profits, or keep it in North America... that is easy too, buy Toyota stock, it is traded on the American NYSE. Symbol: TM and Toyota Motor Corporation pays an actual dividend to their shareholders unlike Ford (F) or General Motors (GM). So a portion of the profits, if you choose to invest in Toyota, also stays in North America. And the capital gains taxes you pay on the shares go once again into US gov pockets ha ha.

These lines aren't so cut and dried anymore like most people have pointed out. The global economy is here whether we like it or not.

[skuttduck]

Just wanted to say, I still have my 2000 Toyota Camry, and love the fact that it was built in Georgetown Kentucky. Not only that, I pop the hood and see a lot of parts labeled "Denso Detroit, MI"

I don't care for the new GEN 7 Camrys. We've had a Toyota in our family since 1976 when my mom had the Celica. My dad when he started working for GM again bought a couple of Cavaliers, as he was driving his International Scout and the uptight union folks wouldn't let him in the lots because his car wasn't "General Motors."

GM teamed up with Toyota to build cars at NUMMI. The Toyota Corolla was marketed as a Chevy Prism also the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe.

Remember the gas pedal fiasco? The Pontiac was on the list and I didn't hear anyone making a big deal about that.

A good chunk of the Camaro was made in Canada, including the interior panels I've taken off. However, my tail lights on my 2010 Camaro were made in Mexico.

The quality, looks, and performance of the 5th gen Camaro is what led me back to GM. It helped my dad qualified for the GM discount as he was retired from there.

I also don't see the folks from Toyota going out to car shows, meeting people, contributing to the message boards, and having focus groups like GM has with the Camaro.