Dissapointed WTF !? Cam swap dyno #s

[Ivan @ Southwest Speed]

Good peak #'s are great but as you can see this cam cost torque throughout the rpm's and that is not good . I'd gladly give up 20 horses @ peak to gain 20 ft lbs throughout the pull .

Spoken like a true Hot Rodder. I agree with you 100%.

It's nice to get all the info when you're talking about a part or modification.
-Ivan

[SicSix6]

Well, there is a thread on here about the silliest comments people make about the camaro. Well, this thread hits the jackpot, even though the comments aren't about my camaro..

The fact that you claim to be dissappointed, yet admit to doing things in the wrong order shows that you've only gone out of your way to disappoint yourself..

1st off, why would you do a cam with a "stock-like" LSA of 115 + 3?
Most reasonable and desired LSA's would be in the 108 to 112 range... That will provide better midrange and lower RPM range torque and horsepower numbers.

2. Doing a Cam without supporting mods is like upgrading the kitchen with granite and fancy steel faced appliances in a house that is condemned and about to fall down. You won't reap the benefits until the rest of the house is fixed and the foundation is renovated and made more secure. It you don't reinforce the cracked foundation the whole thing and added weight will just cause the whole thing to fall on it's face.

Also, a cam is worthless if the right person isn't tuning the car. In Flaminbirds trans am we had two different people tune the car. The first one was highly recommended, yet turned out to know nothing about tuning a car. She only gained 30 HP from the cam and that tune. We went to someone else we met and found he knew alot more about tuning and even knows alot more about tuning for decel in a cammed car. After he was done we gained another 40 HP over the previous tune and 75HP over stock. But her car already had all of the supporting mods before the cam swap.

My point is, do the research, and the prework first. Many people just want that quick horsepower and get upset when they find out that in order for that supercharger or cam to give them the gains they want, they need to do all the other mods too. Do it right the first time and build our project. start low first (ei: exhaust headers, cold air, and suspenssion) then get to the big stuff (cam, supercharger, etc)

[v6sonoma]

Originally Posted by 4xchamp

BTW , it'd Creeeeeaaannston !

Haha sorry

[Slowhawk]

Looks good but keep in mind that Dyna packs are known to put out higher torque #'s than dynojets and Mustang dyno's. The wheelhop thing throws me off too.I wouldn't expect a 400hp car to spin the tires on a dyno -ever.I've seen 800hp cars but never a low hp car.

I'm also sure there is more power in the tune and it should drive like stock with no surging issue's.As said an LS3 computer can not be tuned like an older LS1 car.There are changes that have to be done to get a Cammed LS3 to run right.

Good luck with the build.

[4xchamp]

Originally Posted by SicSix6

Well, there is a thread on here about the silliest comments people make about the camaro. Well, this thread hits the jackpot, even though the comments aren't about my camaro..

The fact that you claim to be dissappointed, yet admit to doing things in the wrong order shows that you've only gone out of your way to disappoint yourself..

1st off, why would you do a cam with a "stock-like" LSA of 115 + 3?
Most reasonable and desired LSA's would be in the 108 to 112 range... That will provide better midrange and lower RPM range torque and horsepower numbers.

2. Doing a Cam without supporting mods is like upgrading the kitchen with granite and fancy steel faced appliances in a house that is condemned and about to fall down. You won't reap the benefits until the rest of the house is fixed and the foundation is renovated and made more secure. It you don't reinforce the cracked foundation the whole thing and added weight will just cause the whole thing to fall on it's face.

Also, a cam is worthless if the right person isn't tuning the car. In Flaminbirds trans am we had two different people tune the car. The first one was highly recommended, yet turned out to know nothing about tuning a car. She only gained 30 HP from the cam and that tune. We went to someone else we met and found he knew alot more about tuning and even knows alot more about tuning for decel in a cammed car. After he was done we gained another 40 HP over the previous tune and 75HP over stock. But her car already had all of the supporting mods before the cam swap.

My point is, do the research, and the prework first. Many people just want that quick horsepower and get upset when they find out that in order for that supercharger or cam to give them the gains they want, they need to do all the other mods too. Do it right the first time and build our project. start low first (ei: exhaust headers, cold air, and suspenssion) then get to the big stuff (cam, supercharger, etc)

Please read all my comments .
I love the Camaro but I have exceedingly high standards . Some say good enough but I expect perfect and when done will have one of the best running Camaros around .
First off I did that order on PURPOSE to acquire data no one else has shared . I bought the LT headers and cam kit but decided I'd try the cam first . Ok ?
Second , that is the cam that was recommended .
Third , I've done it right and provided the necessary supporting cast ( springs , tit retainers , pushrods , rocker mods , intake )
Lastly I agree my tuner may not be up to the task .
My problem with the cam is loss of avg torque . If the headers pick it up great , if not 'notha cam goes in and the old one goes to Ebay . NBD .
Who knows maybe the headers will gain the torque , but apparently nobody knows or I'm sure they would have chimed in . Everyone knows the hp is going to jump so that's no revelation .
I'll post results as soon as they are available .

[Infern0]

I'm kinda confused myself, but it could be lack of experience on my part, so don't take it the wrong way if that's the case...BUT...why would someone want the numbers for an installs done in the wrong order? To teach them NOT to do it in that order perhaps?

I can't wait to see the final numbers though! Keep em comin.

Great job to SStony on the 480!

[thesnoopster]

Oh yeah Im reading all this....

Im sure the numbers will come around

[4xchamp]

Bolted the headers and cats on today . Piece of cake , the Dynatech kit was excellent , fit perfectly .
Car feels way better . Off to the dyno soon .

[4xchamp]

I left a message with the tech line a @ Thunder 2 days ago as I had questions about the loss of torque with their cam and never got a reply .
Today Thunder Racing left me on hold for 12 minutes before I finally hung up .
SCREW THEM !
My time is also valuable , I've been in business almost 30 years and a present client with a question or on rare occasion a problem always gets priority over a new prospect . That's one of the reasons my clients return . Let's face it when you've got a guy that just spent over 2 g's and is ready to spend a couple more you better please them 'cause you know they're not kickin' tires or just trying to pick your brain .
I need a clutch , gears and a bunch of other stuff I'm not buying from them . Also I'm in the market for another cam , I'm going to try Texas Speed and Janetty .

[4xchamp]

We tuned the low speed surge out , low rpm ve tables were too lean . Car is running great . I did order another cam and some other stuff from Texas Speed . I need to find the lost torque , TX speed says their cam is the answer . Also a Spec 2 clutch set up , SLP cai and 160 tstat are on their way .
I was hoping to sell the Thunder Racing cam on ebay but decided that sticking any one with that under performing cam is not my style , the dumpster works fine .
Next week the new stuff goes on . I'll keep you advised of progress .

[Infern0]

Well what were the numbers of that cam when you got the headers installed?

[4xchamp]

I never dynoed the cam with headers because it lost 20 ft/lb vs stock until it hit 4500 revs and was off one ft/lb at peak . So I decided to swap it out .
These new Camaros are heavy and the last thing they need is to lose torque .
I promised the old cam to one of my techs for his ls1 .

[UsedTaHaveA68]

Originally Posted by SicSix6

1st off, why would you do a cam with a "stock-like" LSA of 115 + 3?
Most reasonable and desired LSA's would be in the 108 to 112 range... That will provide better midrange and lower RPM range torque and horsepower numbers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought a wider LSA was better for low end torque. You have less overlap where both the Intake and Exhaust valves are open at the same time, so less of the intake charge goes out the open exhaust valve, thus increasing low speed cylinder filling efficiency. Whereas with a narrow LSA, both valves are open at the same time for a longer duration, allowing better high speed cylinder filling (i.e. more top end power). That being said, since he's looking for low end torque, choosing a wide LSA would be better suited to his goals than a narrow one like you stated. He will also get more stock-like idle quality with a wide LSA.

[4xchamp]

If you look at my dyno sheets with the wide LSA cam I lost about 20 ft lbs throughout until it hit 4500 revs then at peak almost matched the stock cam tq . This was with stock manifolds and good a/f ratios . I did it this way to see what the cam would do on it's own . I was expecting to pick pick up a little torque down low and fully expected the cam to underperform at high revs because of the restriction . It did pick up 25 hp at the high end but again the hp was less until about 4500 revs . This leads me to believe the cam was inefficient down low . Had I done the cam and headers together I woud not have known where I was . We all know headers pick up quite a bit , I wanted to isolate the cam .
I have since installed the headers and the car feels way better but I haven't been on the dyno .
I ordered a 225 112 lc cam from Texas Speed which they say gains tq below 2000 revs , also they indicated my combo should produce 460 - 480 rwhp . I am going to dyno the present setup before swapping the cam to give present cam the benefit of headers and be sure the cam cam cost the torque and not the fact it couldn't breathe well . I'm of the opinion that this cam still should have picked up power at 2 - 3000 revs on it's own and that at these revs the manifolds should not have choked it significantly . A few guys got on my butt about not doing the headers and cam together but then I would have had no indication the cam was underperforming . Let's face it we all know headers work , cams are the only question mark .
I wish my original vendor given me some input here but I don't have time to age while on hold and messages to the tech line weren't returned , I mean even after hanging up after being on hold for 12 minutes ( I had at this point gotten the the salesman on the phone to get me the tech guy ) you think they would have returned the call out of curiosity to see what their cam had done .
John at TX Speed was helpful even hough he knew I shot my load elsewhere and just wanted a cam , I did however get gears and an install kit from him in thanks for his efforts .
I don't have time to play I'm very busy and just want to get it done .
I guess We'll find out soon .