long tube install. obx stainless 304.

[v6sonoma]

In reality even if they weren't 100% 409 SS they are still better than a set of black painted Pacesetters for the same price. Just sayin.

[mikeSS]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

A few links I found on Google-

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=178630

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...x-headers.html

http://www.clubfrontier.org/forums/f...ers-4-0l-8933/




A patent is expensive to get, and even more expensive to enforce. Kooks actually has a patent on the merge spike in their headers. But a patent runs $5-$15K to apply for..so figure out what that costs for each part number. Then if someone infringes on it, you are looking at hundreds of thousands in legal fees to sue and enforce. And that is if you are lucky enough to be dealing with a domestic company. Someone in China, forget it. Louis Vuitton enforces their trademarks, not patents which are easier to attain and protect. Unfortunatly, you can't trademark a header. As everyone complains, Kooks is already too expensive..and this process would just add to that.



Several Factors Here-

Fabrication Costs- Pacesetters are MIG welded mild steel. Kooks are TIG welded 304 stainless. The stainless costs more, but the real kicker in working with stainless is the TIG welding. TIG welding takes 3x as long, and requires a more skilled welder who makes more money. Kooks will put a welder on Camaro headers and he will make 30-40 in a week. Also Kooks uses more advanced benders than Pacesetter, which cost more, but allow for one peice primaries instead of several peices welded togethor. Lastly is the quality. Pacesetters are okay for the price, but the welding looks like a high school shop project compared to Kooks. Also, Kooks does things like weld their flanges inside and out, where a Pacesetter header will be outside only.

Features Costs- Kooks headers have a lot more features which add up. Kooks has O2 extensions, Pacesetter does not. Add $35 There. Then there is the cost of the stainless hardware, ball and socket connections, merge collector, merge spike. and so forth. When you add the cost of the features and added production time in doing it all in stainless your likely talking $200-$300 there.



The headers are the same. ebay headers use primaries made of many peices welded togethor because they don't have the advanced benders to bend one peice of pipe like Kooks does.

[axis]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

I think you need to reread my post. You obviously have trouble seeing the difference between a company designing their own products, and then making them in China and selling them through normal retail channels with real support and warranty (ipod for instance) vs. what is going on here where a company is stealing anothers designs and dumping it on ebay in a fake Rolex flea market way. If they want to design their own headers and sell them in a reputable way with support, I would not have one complaint. But then again the headers would cost a bit more too.

Are you willing to accept a set of Kooks made in China with no warranty or support?

I think you're missing the point. No one is selling these as Kooks, ARH, or any other brand. That makes the fake Rolex comparison mute. While these may be copies of Kooks, OBX isn't trying to sell them as such. We can all agree that they probably copied the Kooks design. The comparison stops there. We all know that Kooks is a great company that offers great support, but that isn't the issue. Whether or not OBX offers support isn't yours or my business. It's a known deal going in that you don't have the same kind of support that Kooks or any other manufacturer gives. You don't sell them so what's it to you anyway? That's part of the deal, I assume. Do you have any support for you cheap Wallmart items? Nope, you take it back and get another, if there's a problem. I assume the same goes with these headers.

I would have a HUGE problem with someone selling me a set of headers with Kooks on the side, if they weren't legit. The same can be said for my 2 Tags as well. If I know going in that they are knock offs and still decide to buy them, that's MY BUSINESS, just like it's your business if you buy cheap knock offs from your fav. retail store. It's just different for you since you're in the market and sell Kooks. If you weren't in the business, you wouldn't be here hammering this in the ground.

[MarylandSpeed]

You can't tell me whoever buys them does not get a peace of mind knowing they were knocked off Kooks. That is actually part of the draw with this brand. You always know they picked a decent header to copy instead of some random cobbled togethor crap. Kooks would see their bend data as intellectual property. The fit, and reputation of fit is what makes a Kooks header a Kooks header. Steal that, and yes, you have a fake Rolex.

Originally Posted by axis

I think you're missing the point. No one is selling these as Kooks, ARH, or any other brand. That makes the fake Rolex comparison mute. While these may be copies of Kooks, OBX isn't trying to sell them as such. We can all agree that they probably copied the Kooks design. The comparison stops there. We all know that Kooks is a great company that offers great support, but that isn't the issue. Whether or not OBX offers support isn't yours or my business. It's a known deal going in that you don't have the same kind of support that Kooks or any other manufacturer gives. You don't sell them so what's it to you anyway? That's part of the deal, I assume. Do you have any support for you cheap Wallmart items? Nope, you take it back and get another, if there's a problem. I assume the same goes with these headers.

I would have a HUGE problem with someone selling me a set of headers with Kooks on the side, if they weren't legit. The same can be said for my 2 Tags as well. If I know going in that they are knock offs and still decide to buy them, that's MY BUSINESS, just like it's your business if you buy cheap knock offs from your fav. retail store. It's just different for you since you're in the market and sell Kooks. If you weren't in the business, you wouldn't be here hammering this in the ground.

[axis]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

You can't tell me whoever buys them does not get a peace of mind knowing they were knocked off Kooks. That is actually part of the draw with this brand. You always know they picked a decent header to copy instead of some random cobbled togethor crap. Kooks would see their bend data as intellectual property. The fit, and reputation of fit is what makes a Kooks header a Kooks header. Steal that, and yes, you have a fake Rolex.

No you don't have a fake Rolex. You have a header that was copied by OBX that has OBX on the side. Kooks didn't patent their design, so what OBX did isn't really illegal. Unethical, probably but not illegal. I just don't get why you're so up in arms over this. As you said previously, you're just here to say they copied Kooks. WE ALL KNOW THAT. What does any of this other crap have to do with the review by the OP?

[Georger]

Guys this is George Rumore [aka GeorgeR}. I am on these forums for a few hours a day. I read all the post and all the points made by all members. The positive that support American companies and the negatives that just don’t care where there money goes. If you were to take a step back into time for one moment and look how our country grew in the early 1900's. It grew at an amazing rate because we had pride in where our hard earned money went. We kept here in this country. We did not take our hard earned money and help support overseas manufacturing if we could sometime we just did not have the technology so we had to outsource overseas. Now 75 years later we are in a resection because of our action to try to save a buck. Now we are a company that was started 45 years ago in Mr. Kook’s garage. Now through hard work and chasing a dream we are a leader in the header and exhaust industry. That is because of one thing PRIDE IN WHAT WE DO AND DEDICATION to you the auto enthusiast. Now I know some of you just want to save a buck if you can that’s fine everyone is entitled to spend there money where they want. But that does not always mean it is right. I see there are people in some of these threads that defend these actions by companies taking other companies design and knocking them off then I see the same people signing of with the Words SEMPER FI. Now for those that do not know SEMPER FI means always faithful, now the reason why I can speak about this is I served in the Marine Corp for 6 years. I was in Force Recon for 5 of those years. In that time I learned many things one of the most important things I learned was take pride in your country. Hell I took an oath that I was willing to die for this country. That is where my pride for this country comes from. When these companies do what they are doing all it is doing is slowly killing this country that so many of our generations of family members worked so hard to build and die for. I am curious to know how some of you would feel if in your work place on a Monday morning you come in with your coffee sit down at your desk and then your boss comes over to you and sits down. Then he proceeds to tell you that you position will be outsourced to a company over seas because it is cheaper for them to do business there so we appreciate all your hard work and starting this program but this other Co can do it for cheaper so we are sorry. Now you have to go home and tell your family that you where fired so that company you were so loyal to can save a buck or two. Now this happens everyday and you can see where this country is headed. That being said you are correct it is your money do what you want with it. I have the same opportunity to spend my money where ever I choose to and I choose to support American based companies.
Now there are a few of you that say just sue them. We do hold a patent for a key component in the header design. My problem is I would like to send a letter to this company but there is no address to send it to. If somebody could provide an address I would love to here there response to these allegations. But after reading the Better business bureau reports I have a feeling they will not respond.

[2010 2-Tone]

Originally Posted by Georger@kooks

Guys this is George Rumore [aka GeorgeR}. I am on these forums for a few hours a day. I read all the post and all the points made by all members. The positive that support American companies and the negatives that just don’t care where there money goes. If you were to take a step back into time for one moment and look how our country grew in the early 1900's. It grew at an amazing rate because we had pride in where our hard earned money went. We kept here in this country. We did not take our hard earned money and help support overseas manufacturing if we could sometime we just did not have the technology so we had to outsource overseas. Now 75 years later we are in a resection because of our action to try to save a buck. Now we are a company that was started 45 years ago in Mr. Kook’s garage. Now through hard work and chasing a dream we are a leader in the header and exhaust industry. That is because of one thing PRIDE IN WHAT WE DO AND DEDICATION to you the auto enthusiast. Now I know some of you just want to save a buck if you can that’s fine everyone is entitled to spend there money where they want. But that does not always mean it is right. I see there are people in some of these threads that defend these actions by companies taking other companies design and knocking them off then I see the same people signing of with the Words SEMPER FI. Now for those that do not know SEMPER FI means always faithful, now the reason why I can speak about this is I served in the Marine Corp for 6 years. I was in Force Recon for 5 of those years. In that time I learned many things one of the most important things I learned was take pride in your country. Hell I took an oath that I was willing to die for this country. That is where my pride for this country comes from. When these companies do what they are doing all it is doing is slowly killing this country that so many of our generations of family members worked so hard to build and die for. I am curious to know how some of you would feel if in your work place on a Monday morning you come in with your coffee sit down at your desk and then your boss comes over to you and sits down. Then he proceeds to tell you that you position will be outsourced to a company over seas because it is cheaper for them to do business there so we appreciate all your hard work and starting this program but this other Co can do it for cheaper so we are sorry. Now you have to go home and tell your family that you where fired so that company you were so loyal to can save a buck or two. Now this happens everyday and you can see where this country is headed. That being said you are correct it is your money do what you want with it. I have the same opportunity to spend my money where ever I choose to and I choose to support American based companies.
Now there are a few of you that say just sue them. We do hold a patent for a key component in the header design. My problem is I would like to send a letter to this company but there is no address to send it to. If somebody could provide an address I would love to here there response to these allegations. But after reading the Better business bureau reports I have a feeling they will not respond.

George, I first want to say Thank You very much for serving this country!! Now I am going to say Bullshit on some of the other stuff. I agree about supporting America and all but you can't tell me that EVERY time you buy clothes you check the label and if it doesn't say MADE IN THE U.S. you put it back. If you buy power tools that you only buy American made. There are a 100 other scenarios that I could bring up and I bet you DO buy things along the way that were made overseas!!!! But it is SOOOO wrong to buy these headers that were made overseas because you are in that business. The OBX ARE NOT CALLED KOOKS!!!! Get over it!!! O Yeah, just to remind everone, I DID BUY THE KOOKS COATED and I still have this opinion!!! LEAVE IT ALONE and let the OP and the rest of the members swap information like this forum allows us to do.

[RedJewel2SS]

very well said! i was going to try and stay out of the debate of "this is why we are in a recession right now" but you explained it better than i could have!

from the BBB link i posted before:
Name: Obx Racing Sports
Phone: (510) 568-2244
Address: 405 Victory Ave, Unit K., South San Francisco, CA 94080

i would call before mailing them... looks like that address is some type of distribution center that you see for Walmart or a Grocery store.

Originally Posted by Georger@kooks

Guys this is George Rumore [aka GeorgeR}. I am on these forums for a few hours a day. I read all the post and all the points made by all members. The positive that support American companies and the negatives that just don’t care where there money goes. If you were to take a step back into time for one moment and look how our country grew in the early 1900's. It grew at an amazing rate because we had pride in where our hard earned money went. We kept here in this country. We did not take our hard earned money and help support overseas manufacturing if we could sometime we just did not have the technology so we had to outsource overseas. Now 75 years later we are in a resection because of our action to try to save a buck. Now we are a company that was started 45 years ago in Mr. Kook’s garage. Now through hard work and chasing a dream we are a leader in the header and exhaust industry. That is because of one thing PRIDE IN WHAT WE DO AND DEDICATION to you the auto enthusiast. Now I know some of you just want to save a buck if you can that’s fine everyone is entitled to spend there money where they want. But that does not always mean it is right. I see there are people in some of these threads that defend these actions by companies taking other companies design and knocking them off then I see the same people signing of with the Words SEMPER FI. Now for those that do not know SEMPER FI means always faithful, now the reason why I can speak about this is I served in the Marine Corp for 6 years. I was in Force Recon for 5 of those years. In that time I learned many things one of the most important things I learned was take pride in your country. Hell I took an oath that I was willing to die for this country. That is where my pride for this country comes from. When these companies do what they are doing all it is doing is slowly killing this country that so many of our generations of family members worked so hard to build and die for. I am curious to know how some of you would feel if in your work place on a Monday morning you come in with your coffee sit down at your desk and then your boss comes over to you and sits down. Then he proceeds to tell you that you position will be outsourced to a company over seas because it is cheaper for them to do business there so we appreciate all your hard work and starting this program but this other Co can do it for cheaper so we are sorry. Now you have to go home and tell your family that you where fired so that company you were so loyal to can save a buck or two. Now this happens everyday and you can see where this country is headed. That being said you are correct it is your money do what you want with it. I have the same opportunity to spend my money where ever I choose to and I choose to support American based companies.
Now there are a few of you that say just sue them. We do hold a patent for a key component in the header design. My problem is I would like to send a letter to this company but there is no address to send it to. If somebody could provide an address I would love to here there response to these allegations. But after reading the Better business bureau reports I have a feeling they will not respond.

he never said he bought ONLY american made stuff! he simply stated he supports it! i do the very same thing. when i buy things for my car or my home, i prefer domestic and preferably locally made products. for detailing equipment, i chose Adam's Polishes, for headers, i chose American Racing, for intake, i chose ADM, for suspension, i chose Pfadt, and for a tune, i chose DiabloSport... all domestic companies with products made in the US (not sure on my programmer, but the company and all it employees are here in the US), for my home's furniture, i bought stuff from a local furniture store that makes everything out of solid wood right here in Texas. i don't shop at Walmart anymore, store is too big to find what your looking for quickly, and the people i see there are trash!

but sometimes you just cannot find american made products! it stinks, but we try and keep those things at a minimum.

and yes it is wrong to buy these headers! from the pics above you can clearly see they are knock off Kooks! only difference between the 2 i see is their patented merge collectors, multi piece primaries, and the brand plaque at the top of the primaries is on a different cylinder. i would never buy a fake Rolex (i would never even spend the money for a real one!), and i would never buy my wife a fake designer handbag. it supports the grey market and low moral standards.

i'm not trying to put anyone down that has already bought these headers... you might not have known where or who you bought them from, and frankly didn't care because it was a great deal! i just ask those who haven't chosen the right header yet, do some research! it took me 5 seconds to find out OBX is a bad company to deal with! F rating from BBB, and only sold on eBay, no where else! too sketchy for me to buy no matter the cost.

Originally Posted by 2010 2-Tone

George, I first want to say Thank You very much for serving this country!! Now I am going to say Bullshit on some of the other stuff. I agree about supporting America and all but you can't tell me that EVERY time you buy clothes you check the label and if it doesn't say MADE IN THE U.S. you put it back. If you buy power tools that you only buy American made. There are a 100 other scenarios that I could bring up and I bet you DO buy things along the way that were made overseas!!!! But it is SOOOO wrong to buy these headers that were made overseas because you are in that business. The OBX ARE NOT CALLED KOOKS!!!! Get over it!!! O Yeah, just to remind everone, I DID BUY THE KOOKS COATED and I still have this opinion!!! LEAVE IT ALONE and let the OP and the rest of the members swap information like this forum allows us to do.

[CamaroCowboy]

The fact of the matter is. I served for 12 1/2 years in the U.S. Army. I have been to 14 different countries. American Made is NOT always Better. Always more expensive and often their support is some butt head in india who can't speek english.

[Alfieboy]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

Hedman is an old school header brand. Kooks is not perfect by any means, but if you spend $1,000 on their headers they will not leave you high and dry on a warranty.

Still my idea is this:

its a new ne wcar ..prices are being raped... good thing these arent minor children..good god.. there is NO need for these prices..but maybe supply vs demand or just greed.. 1500-2200 for a decent set of headers..pretty much BLOWS.....

4,5,600 for a CAI... BLOWS

lic plate bracker 150 bux _REALLY

exterior $$$$.. but again it IS A NEW CAR..why I WAIT things out alot


BUT DID BUY Solo Mach X catback & a CAI(Airraid)..needed & wanted exhaust NOW.lol)

[steeleshark2]

Originally Posted by RX SS RACERX

Just sayin' that if spending a few more $ for US made for comparable product then do it.

I do not mind spending a few extra $ to buy US made products. When paying doubled or more, that is ridiculous. Bought my OBX headers today!!!


PS Look at your computer. There are many stolen technologies you have bought and are currently using RIGHT NOW. Search for Apple and/or Microsoft stealing technologies just for starters. Also how many here have downloaded music or use pirated software which is illegal? (rhetorical question)

[Hicompression]

Originally Posted by steeleshark2

I do not mind spending a few extra $ to buy US made products. When paying doubled or more, that is ridiculous. Bought my OBX headers today!!!

You won't be dissapointed! Ignore the naysayers.

[Georger]

Originally Posted by Alfieboy

THE PROB IS ITS ANY NEW MODEL CAR....

The first "promotion" prices out the ass.. few years later.. normal prices....



I wouldnt say that some are made better..but OBX vs Kooks the difference of 0bx 400 shipped..how much for kooks shipped?

Not everyon ealso Shows their car..maybe they bought it to drive it ..open th ehood when needed... never know not every person wants 2500 worth os shiny expenive exhaust that accomplishes the same feat as a couple hundred bucks..maybe?

Like I said I dont know & really dont care... im just excersing my right to be active here and continue to communicate with other SS and v6 owners.

Since you are so intrested in excersing your right to be active on here I think that is great that is what these forums are for. But before you disagree with someone and yell at them through the keyboard THE PROB IS ITS ANY NEW MODEL CAR.... You should research alittle first here is a pic and price of a Stainless steel Foxbody Header [ Foxbody is 1979- 1993 Mustang header.Retail is 1194.00


See its not the fact that it is a new model car or not. It is the cost of material, lobor, R&D ect........ Listen buy what ever you can afford in these times. You guys are correct it is your money. But it is hard to sit here being a paying sponsor so you can have the opportunity and a place to stay active and communicate with other SS and v6 owners. So when some one steals your technology and then it shows up on a board and everyone starts praising it. Sure we are going to be defensive about it.

[Alfieboy]

Originally Posted by Georger@kooks

Since you are so intrested in excersing your right to be active on here I think that is great that is what these forums are for. But before you disagree with someone and yell at them through the keyboard THE PROB IS ITS ANY NEW MODEL CAR.... You should research alittle first here is a pic and price of a Stainless steel Foxbody Header [ Foxbody is 1979- 1993 Mustang header.Retail is 1194.00


See its not the fact that it is a new model car or not. It is the cost of material, lobor, R&D ect........ Listen buy what ever you can afford in these times. You guys are correct it is your money. But it is hard to sit here being a paying sponsor so you can have the opportunity and a place to stay active and communicate with other SS and v6 owners. So when some one steals your technology and then it shows up on a board and everyone starts praising it. Sure we are going to be defensive about it.

I think also today prices have changed...I mean once buy something years ago for 5.00 will now cost 30.00... either way... its a way of life, Im not mad about it & sure as yell did not mean to yell.