Tuner will VOID warranty

[Number 3]

First only powertrain warranty counts because that is all that is voided.

2nd to have powertrain warranty work done requires GM approval so it is really meaningless to talk about what your dealership can detrmine. It only matters what GM determines.

Lastly, I told an executive about these threads and how the guys selling the "tunes" always jump on me. He chuckled and said, "not only can we tell the date it was re flashed, we can tell the date it was flashed back"

take it for what you think it's worth. I am only trying to help. As I've said countless times I support you having your car reflashed if that is your pleasure. You just need to know what you are doing going in.

[Dr Jkel]

OK Number 3, I have a question, For the sake of Arguement and a real possibilty let's say you add a CAI, Headers, Cam and have a tune and your transmission breaks, earlier VIN below 20000. What happens then? Does your mods void the warranty on the tranny because you added let's say under a 100 hp when there is a good chance you got a weak tranny?

[Mike@DS]

Originally Posted by Number 3

First only powertrain warranty counts because that is all that is voided.

2nd to have powertrain warranty work done requires GM approval so it is really meaningless to talk about what your dealership can detrmine. It only matters what GM determines.

Lastly, I told an executive about these threads and how the guys selling the "tunes" always jump on me. He chuckled and said, "not only can we tell the date it was re flashed, we can tell the date it was flashed back"

take it for what you think it's worth. I am only trying to help. As I've said countless times I support you having your car reflashed if that is your pleasure. You just need to know what you are doing going in.

Executives may think that, but engineers know better....

Again sir, if this was the case, how is there such an immense tuning industry surrounding these cars? We sell 1000s of Predators a month, why is it that NONE of our customers are being told by GM that they can detect their tune?

Its not like they are perfect cars that never need to go back to the dealership....surely this would have come up, at least once, and most likely to a member of this or some other reputable forum, and we would have all heard about it.

If it shows up here, I dont see any reason why camaro5 would cover it up as has been suggested, we do not pay to be here and they owe us nothing.....

[Number 3]

Funny, LOL, I say executive and you assume I'm not talking about an engineer. It was an engineer by the way.

Here is the deal. Changing the tune does not make an engine or transmission automatically blow up. I know many guys who have put superchargers on their cars are putting wayyyyyyyy more HP through the drivetrain than any tune ever will.

You have to understand the difference between stength and fatigue.

Every part in the drivetrain has point at which it simply breaks. One single load at the limit is all it takes. A simple tune likely doesn't hit that because there is a factor of safety engineered into every part on the Camaro. So your tune isn't sending anyone immediately to the dealership for a repair.

The second way a part fails is fatigue. And for normal driving down the road and accelerating normally from a stop sign or stop light you likely aren't putting any more load in the engine, trans or rear axle. So if you tuned it but NEVER drove it any harder and NEVER did a WOT, I would argue the drivetrain would last exactly the same. But that isn't why owners tuned the car is it?

Most of the folks getting tunes want it for better performance than the stock car. So now we are into discussing the SN curve and fatigue limits on parts. If you put a higher load into a part repeatedly it lasts for fewer cycles before failure. It's more detailed than that, but if you understand fatigue at all it makes perfect sense.

So again a tune doesn't make the car immediately fragile any more than the supercharger. But it does shorten the life of the drivetrain by putting higher loads through it than what it was designed for. And you may have clients that never reach that point with their Camaro, but you will have some that hit it after warranty and some in warranty. But I would be surprised if it was any right now this early.

Do you understand the concept of Stress/Stength Interference? In a nut shell you have a Bell Curve that outlines the stresses the customer applies to the vehicle. Further to the right is another Bell Curve of the strength a part was designed for. Ideally you want no interference or overlap of the two curves. Simply adding more torque to the system moves the stress curve to the right creating more interference between the two curves and statistically creates more failures.

GMs has planned for the fact that in reality there is a certain amount of interference either due to the rare weak part of the rare abusive customer. By purposely making yourself a more abusive customer creates more opportunity for failure. And if you understand this principle you will understand that even with a tune or even supercharger you will get customers that statistically got the strongest possible drivetrain and may never see failures.

Regardless it statistically will create more failures.

Look at the number of cars at the Fest with superchargers and turbos. I only saw two cars have breakage and the one car was a guy who blew up the rear end with aftermarket parts that were supposed to be better than stock. Run after run with out problems with well over 500 HP through the trans and rear axle. But they are stressing those parts far more than what they are designed for over time. And that is the key, over time.

Keep in mind folks, for the CTS-V, GM uses an upgraded 6L90 trans instead of the Camaros 6L80. There is good sound engineering behind that.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying a recalibration automatically leads to failure. My whole point is about the warranty and I'm not sure why you guys keep wanting to hang your hat on that.

If you stopped saying (and you contradict yourselves by the way) GM should cover the warranty because of MMA, and then you say you can reflash to the original code so that GM can't tell. So which is it.

I will repeat, I support enthusiasts having their cars recalibrated. I DID IT MYSELF. The only reason I come in to these threads is to make sure that GM customers understand what they potentially risking by doing so. You guys (tuners)keep coming on here trying to say they aren't risking anything, when they are.

[themossman]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Lastly, I told an executive about these threads....

Why are you ratting us out!!!!

Originally Posted by Dr Jekel

OK Number 3, I have a question, For the sake of Arguement and a real possibilty let's say you add a CAI, Headers, Cam and have a tune and your transmission breaks, earlier VIN below 20000. What happens then? Does your mods void the warranty on the tranny because you added let's say under a 100 hp when there is a good chance you got a weak tranny?

If I torpedo my tranny...I would say 'my fault'. If a half shalf snaps at the splines...I'll be pitching a fit (if it's indicative of the issue other 'stock' owners were seeing).

Originally Posted by Number 3

Funny, LOL, I say executive and you assume I'm not talking about an engineer. It was an engineer by the way.

Here is the deal. Changing the tune does not make an engine or transmission automatically blow up. I know many guys who have put superchargers on their cars are putting wayyyyyyyy more HP through the drivetrain than any tune ever will.

You have to understand the difference between stength and fatigue.

Every part in the drivetrain has point at which it simply breaks. One single load at the limit is all it takes. A simple tune likely doesn't hit that because there is a factor of safety engineered into every part on the Camaro. So your tune isn't sending anyone immediately to the dealership for a repair.

The second way a part fails is fatigue. And for normal driving down the road and accelerating normally from a stop sign or stop light you likely aren't putting any more load in the engine, trans or rear axle. So if you tuned it but NEVER drove it any harder and NEVER did a WOT, I would argue the drivetrain would last exactly the same. But that isn't why owners tuned the car is it?

Most of the folks getting tunes want it for better performance than the stock car. So now we are into discussing the SN curve and fatigue limits on parts. If you put a higher load into a part repeatedly it lasts for fewer cycles before failure. It's more detailed than that, but if you understand fatigue at all it makes perfect sense.

So again a tune doesn't make the car immediately fragile any more than the supercharger. But it does shorten the life of the drivetrain by putting higher loads through it than what it was designed for. And you may have clients that never reach that point with their Camaro, but you will have some that hit it after warranty and some in warranty. But I would be surprised if it was any right now this early.

Do you understand the concept of Stress/Stength Interference? In a nut shell you have a Bell Curve that outlines the stresses the customer applies to the vehicle. Further to the right is another Bell Curve of the strength a part was designed for. Ideally you want no interference or overlap of the two curves. Simply adding more torque to the system moves the stress curve to the right creating more interference between the two curves and statistically creates more failures.

GMs has planned for the fact that in reality there is a certain amount of interference either due to the rare weak part of the rare abusive customer. By purposely making yourself a more abusive customer creates more opportunity for failure. And if you understand this principle you will understand that even with a tune or even supercharger you will get customers that statistically got the strongest possible drivetrain and may never see failures.

Regardless it statistically will create more failures.

Look at the number of cars at the Fest with superchargers and turbos. I only saw two cars have breakage and the one car was a guy who blew up the rear end with aftermarket parts that were supposed to be better than stock. Run after run with out problems with well over 500 HP through the trans and rear axle. But they are stressing those parts far more than what they are designed for over time. And that is the key, over time.

Keep in mind folks, for the CTS-V, GM uses an upgraded 6L90 trans instead of the Camaros 6L80. There is good sound engineering behind that.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying a recalibration automatically leads to failure. My whole point is about the warranty and I'm not sure why you guys keep wanting to hang your hat on that.

If you stopped saying (and you contradict yourselves by the way) GM should cover the warranty because of MMA, and then you say you can reflash to the original code so that GM can't tell. So which is it.

I will repeat, I support enthusiasts having their cars recalibrated. I DID IT MYSELF. The only reason I come in to these threads is to make sure that GM customers understand what they potentially risking by doing so. You guys (tuners)keep coming on here trying to say they aren't risking anything, when they are.

Quit trying to make sense. Making money will take priority over that EVERY single time.

RE the tuners claim that they are 'invisible':
I work in IT security...I can 'let' you do things...including subvert my security processes in a manner in which you believe you've successfully bypassed my controls...but I'm still logging you....and all I need is the log... I need the 'front door' to keep the riff raff out...I need the back door to let the really bad people in so I can see what they're doing (or trying to do).

I think this debate is dead until someone's warranty is voided due to a tuner (or a tuner ASSUMES the risk of a voided warranty)...otherwise it's just spitting in the wind.

Originally Posted by Number 3

You guys (tuners)keep coming on here trying to say they aren't risking anything, when they are.

Exactly as I mentioned earlier...it all about understanding the risk. Don't tell someone there is NO RISK....unless you are willing to assume it yourself. If there was no risk, why would a warranty be offered stating such????

[strauchpete]

Just because you have a tune on your car does not void your warranty. I have been in the aftermarket business for 10 years and this is always BIG issue with programmers, remote starts, ect ect.

There is a law out that protects consumers from the dealership just saying you did work to your car so you have no warranty. The only way they can void that part of your warranty is to directly show that what you did to your car broke your car.

Here is a link to the law stating what protections people have.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60943

[Johnny1]

Just not true when it comes to a tune. Yes if you have like a cold air intake or exhaust your ok. I used to work at a GM dealership and saw them void warrentys all the time when some one would come in with engine problems. The first thing they did was check for a tune if it was a engine problem. Second thing they did was void the warrenty.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by strauchpete

Just because you have a tune on your car does not void your warranty. I have been in the aftermarket business for 10 years and this is always BIG issue with programmers, remote starts, ect ect.

There is a law out that protects consumers from the dealership just saying you did work to your car so you have no warranty. The only way they can void that part of your warranty is to directly show that what you did to your car broke your car.

Here is a link to the law stating what protections people have.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60943

You are correct, you have only voided the powertrain portion of the warranty, not the whole warranty.

And I can assure you what GM used to "take a blind eye" to, is something they are now taking a very serious look at. As I mentioned in my lengthy post above (which was not NEAR long enough) a tune that specifically increases output for example typically won't show up until later. So going to a 5 year 100,000 mile warranty forced GM to ensure that only the customers that should rightfully get warranty work will get it. The ones that used to slide years ago will no longer slip by.

And a remote start is a bit different than reprogramming an ECU.

[cplabaunza]

I hope AEM comes out with an Engine Management ECU for this car...swap the ECU back and forth with no need to tune the original.

[Dr Jkel]

Number 3
So is there a way for GM to see how you use your car, I understand evrything you said, being an older guy, HP is not as important to me, what really matters is SOUND, the old muscle car sound.

So my question is, I guess, even if you mod it with a CAI intake, Headers, Cam and Tune by what you are saying if you don't rawhide it you shoiuld be fine. But doesn't the computer keep data as to usage RPM's etc.... so they could tell that you were dogging it? I am not being contrary, I just don't honestly know.

[cplabaunza]

That's a good point...Shouldn't GM take a look at the Tune's perameters and see if it indeed cause the failure? You'd be screwed if you just modifed the Stock program to increase the speed limiter and your engine failed while driving normally. You may call it an adjustment, but it GM won't know that unless they reviewed the parameters of the tune.

Originally Posted by Dr Jekel

Number 3
So is there a way for GM to see how you use your car, I understand evrything you said, being an older guy, HP is not as important to me, what really matters is SOUND, the old muscle car sound.

So my question is, I guess, even if you mod it with a CAI intake, Headers, Cam and Tune by what you are saying if you don't rawhide it you shoiuld be fine. But doesn't the computer keep data as to usage RPM's etc.... so they could tell that you were dogging it? I am not being contrary, I just don't honestly know.

[jrc1122]

I stopped believing in the boogy man-- a LONG TIME AGO.. lol

[Dr Jkel]

Bump for discussion

[Mike@DS]

Originally Posted by cplabaunza

That's a good point...Shouldn't GM take a look at the Tune's perameters and see if it indeed cause the failure? You'd be screwed if you just modifed the Stock program to increase the speed limiter and your engine failed while driving normally. You may call it an adjustment, but it GM won't know that unless they reviewed the parameters of the tune.

This is a good point indeed.

Blaming aftermarket flashes in general seems to be a bit unfair. If they want to go make a case of this, I think they should have to read the tune out and decide what it was about the tune that caused the failure, and I'd bet in a court of law, the manufacturer saying 'well, we dont know what they did, just that they did something' would not go to far with a jury of our peers...